Is it a sin if you...

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Is it a sin if you...

Post by pichu on Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:51 pm

Steal bread for a starving baby that hasn't eaten in days?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:27 pm

It's unethical.(Translate that to "Yes it's a sin" if you're that religious)
You can buy the bread for the baby if you really cared.
Or ask the baker for charity...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Kenzomatic on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:00 pm

Why do you need to steal the bread?

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by amp316 on Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:58 pm

Is it a sin to start threads like this?

Who knows? Ask God. You have his number?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Brute on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:56 am

Like iclim said, its better to just buy the baby the bread.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Don Ramón on Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:47 am

Bread for a baby?
You wanna choke him?? Thats the Sin

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by MesoZombie on Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:05 am

yes its a sin b/c stealing is a sin

how ever if you want to take a rod no bigger then your thumb and beat teh baby

thats all cool

but once he is down dont keep going b/c if you kill him thats a sin as well
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:37 am

There is no such thing as a sin, its a sociological reflex to think things we do have moral value... it keeps our society from falling into a state of anarchy... just look at the 10 commandments... for todays age some of them sound highly irrational... the first three are about god being jealous... then you have to keep one particular day holy and honor you parents (what if you parents are assholes ? do you really want to honor them ???) at the end they tell us what not to desire... which is kinda impossible to follow... then you have your adultery and not lying rule... which are vague and hardly followed... the only ones that are really important as laws are the do not kill and do not steal ones... and I am sure we could have come up with those without religion...

So I would say while religion can be a good moral guideline at times its almost always better to use common sense to determine whats right and whats not...

Its really not important where or how you get the bread... sure buying the bread or getting it trough other legal means might be more honorable... but in the end all that counts it that the baby gets something to eat...

Also everyone who thinks its a sin to steal for the hungry is going to hell anyway since idly standing by while others starve is killing them... which is much worse then stealing a little food... Razz
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:24 am

Just because you're doing something for a good cause doesn't mean you're not liable for your mistakes...

I think I understand your moral guideline a little from your post.
You're the kind of guy who thinks the ends always justify the means.

Though I don't really agree with you.
What if the baker also had a family to support?

What's so hard about buying the bread?
You want to help the child but you're not actually willing to give him anything, so you have to steal from someone else?
How about asking the baker for charity if you don't have money? He might be a kind hearted person willing to share.
Or how about asking other passerbys for charity if the baker is in a pinch and can't afford to give free bread, he might even give a small discount.
There are a lot of ways to get through this without stepping over someone else.
It's as simple as taking a few seconds to think of a proper course of action to take.

Don Ramean wrote:Bread for a baby?
You wanna choke him?? Thats the Sin
You could always chew the food for the baby. haha

Though the question is:
What do you do after you feed the baby?
Do you just leave him where you found him and hope some other kind soul feeds him later?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:33 am

the OP doesn´t mention we have money... why would we steal bread if we can buy it ??? that makes no sense... I don´t care how you feed the baby... as long as you don´t resort to cannibalism or steal form someone who is also starving its most likely better then leaving the baby to starve...

Not all ends justify all ends... but stealing bread compared to letting someone starve is a pretty easy choice... also you add way to many variables that don´t really matter... so what if the baker is supporting a family ?... he is selling bread so I hardly believe his family is starving... so what if you are starving too and decide to eat the baby that was going to starve anyway ??? or what if the baker is suicidal ??? is it ok to eat him ??? what if, what if, what if...

Question was, is it ok to steal food for the starving... anyone who thinks its ok to let someone starve because "laws" don´t allow them to help should start starving and think about it again after a few days...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:33 pm

Pichu also didn't say that we didn't have money.
Why would you steal bread if you can buy it?
Maybe you can buy just one piece of bread and you don't want to go hungry.
That's a moral choice. I don't agree with stealing it. Again variables, they do matter, not everything in life is in black or white. Even without money, you can offer to do some chores inside the bakery for a piece of bread you can give to the baby. If you choose to help do so, but not at someone else's expense. Self-sacrifice.

Bottom line is you're giving something to someone while stealing something from someone. The baby gains, the bakers loses(which wouldn't really matter if he chooses to help aswell), while you lose nothing.
Proper situation would be baby gains, you lose something because you chose to go the extra mile, while the baker loses nothing because he wasn't aware of the situation.
If you tell the baker there is a chance he'd be willing to share the loss with you for the baby's gain.

This is no Robinhood story, the baker is not a tyrant, you're not the only "hero" capable of helping, stealing is not the only option.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by tao on Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:58 pm

yes its a sin to steal no matter what but you stole to save a life. a life is worth much more than some peice of bread. It would be an even bigger sin if you just let the baby die.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Luinil on Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:00 pm

So iclim does have a heart. ^_^ lol.
I agree with iclim on this.

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by pichu on Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Kenzomatic wrote:Why do you need to steal the bread?

Oops, looks like I forgot to mention that you're poor and have no money and you NEED to steal the bread to feed your baby in the OP.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:47 pm

Luinil wrote:So iclim does have a heart. ^_^ lol.
I agree with iclim on this.
Yes and it's big, it's warm and it's throbbing.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Falcon095 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:26 pm

tao wrote:yes its a sin to steal no matter what but you stole to save a life. a life is worth much more than some peice of bread. It would be an even bigger sin if you just let the baby die.

That's a no win/no win situation..
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:48 pm

iclim4 wrote:

This is no Robinhood story, the baker is not a tyrant, you're not the only "hero" capable of helping, stealing is not the only option.

Pichu just said you can´t buy the bread which is obvious since else you could just buy it and have no moral dilemma... your explanation is still full of "ifs" and "maybes"... maybe the bakery is owned by a evil company that is harming the the baker as well as monopolizing the bread prizes which is why the baby is starving in the first place... you can "if" and "maybe" all you want if you can´t answer a simple, direct, question, yes stealing is a sin but letting a baby starve is a much greater sin so you have a moral obligation to steal if its your only option aside from letting the baby die... just like you have to counter violence with violence if its your only option and one person was threatening incontinent lives... or would you not kill someone evil if it was the only way to save friends a family ???

Oh and "you're not the only "hero" capable of helping" is a lousy excuse not to help someone... if someone is bleeding to death on a street would you not feel obligated to help because "you're not the only "hero" capable of helping"... thats BS and you know better...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:14 pm

El Duderino wrote:
iclim4 wrote:

This is no Robinhood story, the baker is not a tyrant, you're not the only "hero" capable of helping, stealing is not the only option.

Pichu just said you can´t buy the bread which is obvious since else you could just buy it and have no moral dilemma... your explanation is still full of "ifs" and "maybes"... maybe the bakery is owned by a evil company that is harming the the baker as well as monopolizing the bread prizes which is why the baby is starving in the first place... you can "if" and "maybe" all you want if you can´t answer a simple, direct, question, yes stealing is a sin but letting a baby starve is a much greater sin so you have a moral obligation to steal if its your only option aside from letting the baby die... just like you have to counter violence with violence if its your only option and one person was threatening incontinent lives... or would you not kill someone evil if it was the only way to save friends a family ???

Let's put this in a real world situation shall we?
If you found a baby starving on the street in front of your local bakery and it's parents couldn't buy food for him, and you left your wallet in the house, what would you do? Go in the bakery and steal bread? or would you talk to the baker and passerby's if they can offer help?

All I'm saying is, there are other ways of obtaining bread/food without stealing, even without money.
There is no such thing as a "NEED" to steal bread to feed the baby.
You always have a choice. It doesn't even have to be only you who has to feed the baby, it doesn't even have to be bread. As long as the baby is fed. Again the world is not black or white.
El Duderino wrote:you can "if" and "maybe" all you want if you can´t answer a simple, direct, question, yes stealing is a sin but letting a baby starve is a much greater sin so you have a moral obligation to steal if its your only option aside from letting the baby die...

If you read the OP again, all it says is
"Is it a sin to steal bread for a starving baby that hasn't eaten in days?"
And yes I did answer Pichu's question no "ifs" or "maybes". It's the 2nd post in this thread...

The second part of this discussion is something we fabricated ourselves.
And I would not consider this a simple, direct, question.

El Duderino wrote:
Oh and "you're not the only "hero" capable of helping" is a lousy excuse not to help someone... if someone is bleeding to death on a street would you not feel obligated to help because "you're not the only "hero" capable of helping"... thats BS and you know better...

You just missed my point dude.
I am talking about helping the baby.
What I'm saying is, you might be too poor to buy bread but other people aren't.
You can advocate for the child either to passerbys or the baker himself.
Even go to a different store for another type of food.
You're not the only "hero" capable of helping.
Other people can be "heroic" too.

Let me share what I believe in this thread.
I believe stealing is the easy way out.
You help someone quick and painless at no cost to you, only to the victim you chose to steal from.

I believe going the extra mile, actually working for it to help someone, is how things should be done.
Asking help from strangers. Willing to do chores to feed the baby.
Actually willing to sacrifice something you have to help someone.

I also have an additional question for you dude.
What do you plan on doing after you've stolen the bread and fed the baby?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:43 pm

^^ I don´t know why its so important what I would do after I fed the baby ??? Once its no longer starving to death I bring it to the police or a anonymous baby drop off... since it appears you would let a baby starve to death if stealing food was the only option of feeding it I ask you what do you plan on doing after you´ve watched the baby starve to death ???

P.S. Actually I only kept the baby from starving because I know how hard it is to sell them when they are dead...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:26 pm

First let me get one thing straight, as long as it is in my "power", I would never let the baby starve to death.
Now the reason I asked that question and why it's important to know what you plan on doing after you fed the baby was to find out if you planned on going back to the bakery to own up to the consequences of your action or just go home after the whole ordeal.

And yes stealing is in my "power". (But I really can't see a realistic situation where I'm forced to resort to stealing for this baby)
To me the life of a child is more important than theft, But I will do everything in my power to find a way to get through this with my moral integrity intact. And to me the only way to remedy stealing is to actually come back and confess, Share the situatuion on why you had to do it, offer to do work for it or promises to pay for it after you've saved up enough money (You could even offer this before resorting to stealing the bread, which is why is still see no realistic situation where I have to resort to stealing)

Also you can't sell babies at the police station or anonymous baby drop off, you big softy. =P
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:14 pm

Stop being such a babykiller... also do you ever confess to companies that make movies and TV series you download ??? (I´m assuming everyone here has at least downloaded a few illegal videos or mp3s.)
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Kenzomatic on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:50 am

Seriously there are like a billion options here.

1st off if this is anywhere in america all hospitals would be legally obligated to take care of the child. Just like how you could get in a shoot out with the cops kill ten people and get wounded, and you would recieve medical treatment before jail or being sentenced you to death.

The entire idea of what is a sin and not it to direct people toward the options that benifit the societe most.

The 10 commandments are not silly, and I wonder how anyone who beleives in god could beleive that they infact have a better grasp on the situation of humanity then god. But thats the human centric center of the universe thinking that is so common. Just like how humans are sole source for global warming right.

It is impossible for a human to live life without sin, that said every single individual sin taken on a case by case bases could be avoided, including this one.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE IT IS A SIN AND YOU DID HAVE OTHER OPTIONS AS YOU ALWAYS WILL IN LIFE.

I guess to make this really work you would have to say you are a retard with an IQ of 40 your are incapable of realizing that food must be bought. You see a crying baby and hand him some food off a shelf which he then eats and you never pay. Was that a sin?

YES IT WAS.

Will he be punished for it in the after life IDK god judges everyone on a case by case bases and he is just.

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:03 pm

^^ You really think the 10 commandments come from god ("and where given to one man on a mountain") and not made by man to fit the need of the time (has Idle making been a huge problem lately or should we kill every popular actor and musician for being a false idle) ???

Also saying you always have other options is a luxury for people who have never had real existential problems... sure no one really has to commit sins to survive in rich countries... lots of people in the world don´t have the luxury of such options... its easy for us to say there is always a good was to solve problems... sometimes you only have a choice between a rock and a hard place... and sometimes its just the hard place...

Yes stealing wrong and unlawful and a sin (in almost every case)... but live isn´t just that easy for everybody... I know that and apparently so does god... and so did Jesus when he let his disciples pic grain from a field because they where hungry... they did so even though they didn´t ask... on top of that it was sabbath... so if you guys still think its automatically a sin you better not discuss it with god or Jesus... they are on my team...

"Deuteronomy 23:

24 If you enter your neighbor's vineyard,
you may eat all the grapes you want,
but do not put any in your basket.
25 If you enter your neighbor's grainfield,
you may pick kernels with your hands,
but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain."

So the bible (old and new testament) which is pretty much the standard for what is a sin and what is not says its completely ok to steal food for the hungry, your not allowed to take more then you need but I think that is obvious...


so.... IN YOUR FACE !!!... MAUHAHAHAH I AM THE MOST MORAL OF ALL HERE... AND ON TOP OF THAT A MILLION TIMES MORE HUMBLE THEN YOU GUYS....


@ Kenzo: "The 10 commandments are not silly, and I wonder how anyone who beleives in god could beleive that they infact have a better grasp on the situation of humanity then god." When did I ever say that ??? And what does it have to do with thinking the 10 commandments where not actually made by god himself... you can´t take everything in the old testament and the new testament and hold both true since they contradict each other... also the new testament was written several generations after Jesus died so its all written and interpreted by men... no one can rightfully say they know what is gods word and what isn´t. So every discussion about religion by anybody is part of the "human centric center of the universe"... unless god speaks directly to you... does he ??? If not everything you say is just as much part of the "human centric center of the universe" as what I say. (btw. "human centric center" sounds kinda redundant.)
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Kenzomatic on Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:56 pm

As much as I want to argue I will just leave it with this

Ecclesiastes 3

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Romans 14

20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.


I guess in a way it could be a sin for me and not for you.

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:20 pm

^^ I accept you apology.
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