Is it a sin if you...

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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:19 pm

El Duderino wrote:Stop being such a babykiller... also do you ever confess to companies that make movies and TV series you download ??? (I´m assuming everyone here has at least downloaded a few illegal videos or mp3s.)

I'll stop if you quit being a tree hugger.

Okay, it might be a different tangent but I'll bite. Here's a little info about me.
I do download music, I wont lie but I don't personally consider it stealing.(and thats entirely another discussion)
It's probably because I was buying pirated music ever since I was born without even knowing I was "pirating".
The rate was about 180 songs for less than the value of a dollar, real cheap, haha.
You may say I have a skewed sense of honor, morals and values, and I won't deny that.
We all have different morals that we value, some forced on by religion and some you acquire as you sail through life.
And the morals I have, I value dearly, and it defines who I am, a sense of individuality.

Now back on the topic at hand.
You spoke of moral obligation (to be forced to do something bad for something good) so I challenged you and I gave you a solution (Which was to either ask for help, or confess later on and do something in exchanged for the bread, which I would assume you weren't willing with your remark of "do you confess when you download?").
You see, you succumbed right away to stealing, to take from someone else and give to someone else, while having no right to do so. Again, if you desire to help someone, do so on your own merits, or ask someone else to help you.
You don't have to hurt someone to help somebody else, no one has to be the victim here.
But you were ready to step on your own moral integrity and take the "easy" road and just blame everything on "moral obligation", while not willing to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 pm

^^ I am repeating myself... the question does not involve anybody else its just me, a starving baby and a bred that is not mine... that is all... and I don´t see why I should justify not confessing stealing a bread (which the baby needs to live) when you don´t think you need to confess stealing music (which is luxury)... and again don´t tell me to ask someone else... there is not always someone who will help and it was not part of the question... saying there is always a good way to solve every problem is the easy way out by not confronting with hard questions an real issues... someone else will fix it...

Anyway question was: Is it a sin ? I made a point that I don´t think so... the old testament didn´t think so and Jesus didn´t think so...


Last edited by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:36 pm

El Duderino wrote:
So I would say while religion can be a good moral guideline at times its almost always better to use common sense to determine whats right and whats not...
El Duderino wrote:So the bible (old and new testament) which is pretty much the standard for what is a sin and what is not says its completely ok to steal food for the hungry, your not allowed to take more then you need but I think that is obvious...

so.... IN YOUR FACE !!!... MAUHAHAHAH I AM THE MOST MORAL OF ALL HERE... AND ON TOP OF THAT A MILLION TIMES MORE HUMBLE THEN YOU GUYS....

Morality doesn't necessarily mean following the bible.
Unless you're very religious, which I had the impression that you aren't?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:42 pm

I already said I don´t see the Bible as the the ultimate guideline... but its still very valuable... so ether everyone states his own opinion and everyone decides whats a sin and what is not for themselves (which everyone does anyway)... but that doesn´t make for a good debate... since sin is something invented by religion it only makes sense to take the foundation of our religion as a guide to determine whats a sin and what not... and the bible obviously supports my argumentation...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:08 pm

El Duderino wrote:^^ I am repeating myself... the question does not involve anybody else its just me, a starving baby and a bred that is not mine... that is all...

And so have I...
The original question was a simple "is it a sin?"
Which we covered already.
The other part, about moral obligation is something we fabricated ourselves.
And it's more of a take on morals rather than religion.

El Duderino wrote: and I don´t see why I should justify not confessing stealing a bread (which the baby needs to live) when you don´t think you need to confess stealing music (which is luxury)... and again don´t tell me to ask someone else... there is not always someone who will help and it was not part of the question... saying there is always a good way to solve every problem is the easy way out by not confronting with hard questions an real issues... someone else will fix it...
That's a bit off dude.
So if I know someone who got away with murder, I don't need to justify myself if I take away a human life?
Because that's the analogy you're making right now.
You don't have to compare yourself to me, or anyone else for that matter, live by your own standards and live in the manner you think is right. I'm no saint, I'm just another person in a message board. Again dude, we all have different morals that we value.

Now the reason we're having this discussion is because you're saying you're morally obligated to steal bread.
El Duderino wrote: ...yes stealing is a sin but letting a baby starve is a much greater sin so you have a moral obligation to steal...
And this is where I think there's something wrong.
You blame moral obligation for the "crime" of taking from someone else to help someone else, that you were obligated to steal, while you yourself is not willing to take responsibility. If you blame moral obligation there, then you're also morally obligated to take responsibility for your actions, am I right? You can't just use it as an excuse for the first situation where it works for you and discard it on the next.

Also, for what its worth.
I apologize if I'm offending you.
I just thought it was an interesting discussion.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:26 pm

"The original question was a simple "is it a sin?"
Which we covered already."

If you mean "covered" in the sense of me proving its not... then yes...

"So if I know someone who got away with murder, I don't need to justify myself if I take away a human life?"

How does that make any sense ??? I only said you have double standards for saying I should take responsibility for stealing a bread for the starving when you won´t for stealing music for your own pleasure...

"You blame moral obligation for the "crime" of taking from someone else to help someone else, that you were obligated to steal, while you yourself is not willing to take responsibility."

I already said that I (and the bible) do not see it as a crime... stealing music is a crime and I don´t see you taking responsibility so I don´t see why I should have to explain myself for saving a baby...

"You can't just use it as an excuse for the first situation where it works for you and discard it on the next."

Saving a starving baby is not the first random situation... and who said I would discard it in the next situation... sometimes you have to do a minor wrong to make a major right... thats live... at least I am not running away from hard decisions by saying other people should help...

And I am not morally obligated to confess stealing the bread... I was only morally obligated to save the baby because it was a real emergency... I would not have stolen the bread if the baby was mildly hungry... but my obligation ends there... the baby is saved and I can return to my live of questionable morals... the baby was a matter of live or death... the rest is not...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:13 pm

I think you're confusing something here, and I think for this discussion to go forward we need to clarify it.

morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moral

Now "right" and "wrong" is subjective, I'm sure you already know that.
Which is why the bible does not equal morality, nor does it mean "not sinning" equal being moral.
Just some clarification.

El Duderino wrote:
"So if I know someone who got away with murder, I don't need to justify myself if I take away a human life?"
How does that make any sense ???
El Duderino wrote:I don´t see why I should justify not confessing stealing a bread (which the baby needs to live) when you don´t think you need to confess stealing music (which is luxury).
iclim4 wrote:
You don't have to compare yourself to me, or anyone else for that matter, live by your own standards and live in the manner you think is right. I'm no saint, I'm just another person in a message board. Again dude, we all have different morals that we value.
Also, I never said I was "morally obligated".
Nor did I agree that I believe downloading songs is stealing.
The same way you're saying the bible is telling you "stealing bread is not a crime".
The same way some religions tell their followers killing other religious factions is not a sin.

El Duderino wrote:"You can't just use [moral obligation] as an excuse for the first situation where it works for you and discard it on the next."

Saving a starving baby is not the first random situation... and who said I would discard it in the next situation... sometimes you have to do a minor wrong to make a major right... thats live...
Your decision on taking responsibility for the bread you stole is your next situation.
Will you take responsibility for it, or just leave the baker at a loss?

El Duderino wrote:And I am not morally obligated to confess stealing the bread... I was only morally obligated to save the baby because it was a real emergency... I would not have stolen the bread if the baby was mildly hungry... but my obligation ends there... the baby is saved and I can return to my live of questionable morals... the baby was a matter of live or death... the rest is not...

Moral obligation is pretty much just being forced to do what you think is right.
Do you think it is right to steal bread?
What should you do to make it right if you were forced to steal bread?
Do you think you should do anything?

My goal here is not to judge you on why you don't want to take responsibility.
I'm just curious on why you don't want to take responsibility.
Is it because you don't think taking something away from someone is wrong?
That's the perspective I'm after for here.
I'm not claiming my skewed morals and values is the ultimate guide, nor do I believe it's a superior set, I'm just curious to see where someone with a different perspective, beliefs and life experiences would go.

Again, morals is what YOU think is right or wrong, without the restrictions of laws and religions.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:27 pm

I am done answering questions as long as you evade my questions or the actual issue without giving some answers of your own... for example how stealing someone elses hard work and intellectual property is not stealing. Also I answered pretty much every question you just asked me in previous posts...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:07 pm

This isn't a pissing contest on which of us is more virtuous, which of us is "right" or which of us has better morals, I don't know why you're so hostile and so adamant to go that route..
And what questions of the actual issue did I evade?
The tangent where you want to prove I steal and don't confess?
And what does that prove with the actual issue?
And the downloading, stealing argument angle has been done to death several times. Even VGC alone had several discussions of it and I took part of two threads talking about the same issue.
I think it's just a waste of both our times, and it's an entirely different issue that I would rather not waste time on right now.
Do you really want to bring that topic here and what point do you have with it?
If you deem it's worth it, I'll type it.

Btw, just because the bible doesn't see it as a crime doesn't mean it isn't a crime.
Would you go in someone's home, eat food out of their fridge till you're full and just not put anything in your pockets or basket and be scott free?

All I'm interested in is why you don't want to confess.
I know different people carry different morals and values.
Again I'm not here to judge you.
I'm just curious on why.
That's the perspective I'm after for here.
I'm just curious to see where someone with a different perspective, beliefs and life experiences would go.
And If you're not comfortable talking about it, then fine.
Who am I to force you to answer?
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:32 pm

You evaded the original problematic by saying there is always a good way to solve every problem and other people should help instead of you...

I don´t confess to whomever I stole the bread from because whats I did had to be done... I am not sorry for doing it... my guilt or sorrow won´t help the baker...

I still don´t see how you can say stealing other peoples hard work and intellectual property is not stealing... sure I download a lot off stuff too... different stuff for different reasons... but its not mine to take and I know its stealing... I don´t make up an excuse to justify it.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by iclim4 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:44 pm

I said asking help from other people is another good way.
If they offer to help, then you can avoid stealing.
it doesn't have to be you in the spotlight as long as the baby is fed right?

Also, what do you think about letting the baker know that you took one of his bread to feed a hungry baby? It doesn't have to be guilt or sorrow to compensate for the lost item. If someone stole food from me, I'd rather know where it went.
I probably wont even be angry if someone stole food from me to feed a starving baby, but I would be pissed if someone just stole from me without knowing. Not saying that I don't agree with your course of action, there are several ways to go through life and it's kinda nice discussing the other routes.

My rationale as to why I don't believe downloading music is stealing?
Well stealing means that someone lost something while someone gained something. Like stealing a car or bread or a watch. Someone actually loses those items. Downloading in the other hand is different.
The item in question is actually still there, it just got duplicated.
Would you consider it stealing to photocopy a friends book?
It's not even against the law to download, only when you upload the songs for other people are you infringing copyrights. So when you download, the people on the other side providing you the song is actually the one liable to be sued by copyright companies.

Anyway let me try an analogy.
Are you familiar with the bible story of Jesus multiplying bread and fish?
Let's do a story with that.
Let's say there was a baker who worked hard for months to make a new recipe for his bread( haha bread, atleast we're on topic)
Anyway, a customer comes in and buys 2 loafs of the new bread.
When the customer comes out he hears of a man named Jesus preaching in the fields.
He decides to go there and listen to this person preach.
After listening, he was taken aback by this man's charisma that he decided to donate his bread. After which the new bread the baker worked hard on was put in a basket and multiplied(at no cost to the baker) and given free to the people who came to listen.
The people ate the bread the baker worked hard for for free but at no lost to the baker.
Would you tell the people they stole the bread?
Sure the baker lost some sales and it's up to the people to actually buy from him so he won't close down.
But do you think the people who ate the bread for free should be prosecuted as robbers?

Of course I understand the implications of what I'm doing. It is bad for the industry. But I do averagely spend around $30 a month buying stuff on itunes. I just can't afford everything being a nonworking student.
I know that that's not a legitimate excuse and I could stop downloading all together if I don't have the money, but they're not really losing anything if I download and not gaining anything when I stop. And it's not even against the law, or my own morals.
Anyway, as I've said I'm no saint.
You may call my sense of morals and values skewed and I won't deny that.
We have different things we hold dear.
I put more value on some of my morals more than others.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:46 am

Thats the easy way out... saying no one loses anything because you could´t afford it anyway just means you aren´t willing to sacrifice anything for other peoples hard work... my dad once walked through a snow storm for three hours to get a new Led Zeppelin album... and he payed full price... because music was special back then and with one klick downloading and with the arguments "everyone does it" and "they aren´t loosing becaus I wouldn´t have bought it anyway" music is just another throwaway product that we feel we have every right to steal... but if you think stealing bread is a crime and stealing intellectual property is not you are shifting your morals to fit your way of live... not the other way around... like it should be... One person might not make a difference... but since everyone thinks they are only one person that attitude is costing people money and jobs... and I am not talking about 50cent having a jet less... I am talking about sound technicians and studio musicians being fired. Is it not stealing when Chinese companies take western technologies, copy them and produce them cheaply ??? It took millions to develop those products but its ok to steal them because those companies are only selling them in china and to people who couldn´t afford the real thing ??? Of course its still stealing... anything else is ridiculous... if you take time effort and money to make something you have a right to it... no matter if its a physical product or not... and stealing things with the excuse "I couldn´t afford it anyway" is ridiculous... that way I could just go and live in an empty mansion... no one was living there anyway so they aren´t loosing money and since I can´t afford it I might as well just take it...

And this is also not very open minded:

"The item in question is actually still there, it just got duplicated.
Would you consider it stealing to photocopy a friends book?"

Counter question: You just took three years to write the book of the century... your family and friends left you because you where only writing the book and you are dirt poor and almost starving since you didn´t have time to keep your day job... now the book is done and the world loves it... but you only sold one copy of the book... and that got duplicated and everyone is just reading copys of that... would you not feel robbed ??? I know I over dramatized the situation but I am absolutely sure in any situation that was remotely close to it you would feel (very physically) robbed... and rightfully so.

Also to the Jesus analigy is flawed... 1st. It a miracle... not comparable to real live. 2nd Even if you compare it to real live... the people where hungry... AND there was no baker around to sell bread... thats a difference... also bread is something you need to buy almost every day... so if you get free bread today you need to buy more tomorrow and the baker makes money again... of you download music that is yours to keep forever... no need to readownload it or buy it later...

I am not saying I am more moral then anybody else... and yes I download stuff... but I know I am stealing and I try not to shift morals around to make my lifestyle seem righteous.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Unsight on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:02 pm

pichu wrote:Steal bread for a starving baby that hasn't eaten in days?

Some of the greatest evils in this world were done in the name of "good."

Someone once wrote "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:52 pm

Lame excuse... Hitler was a vegetarian atheist... didn´t make him any better... also who is this "good" you worship ??? Also stealing bread it not among the "greatest evils"... doesn´t even make top 1000... and saving a baby is hardly something you can morally question... no one asked if it was ok to start nuclear holocaust to save a starving baby...

I don´t think you cant call anything a crime that you do in order to directly preserve your live or one who can´t themself... killing someone is obviously a crime and a sin... its among the worst... but killing someone who was just about to kill you is not a sin or a crime... well maybe its still a sin... depends on gods mood I guess... of course its not always that easy... but every normal human and most every animal has the natural instinct to preserve the own live... its what ceeps live going and calling it a sin or a crime or evil makes very little sense IMO...
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by Unsight on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:51 pm

El Duderino wrote:Also stealing bread it not among the "greatest evils"

There is no such thing as a "small evil."

A wrong done in the name of good will forever be a wrong.
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

Post by El Duderino on Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:29 pm

So legalized pedophilia on braindead children is just as evil as stealing bread for a starving baby ???
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Re: Is it a sin if you...

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